encubed

Hako no minasaaaaan, encubed desu yoooo!

minori continues chatting

April 24th, 2010, by zalas
Posted in Translation , Tagged: ,

It appears that minori is still commenting on a talk page on the TLWiki, and due to the previous article being ridiculously long, the rest of the conversation and any more developments will be posted in this article. To summarize the new comments, minori talked about user license agreements and the proper way to go about translating games.

Hey, Minori, I’m a dirty gaijin and yet I bought all four of your shitty games (not to mention many other character goods and R2 DVDs related to them). Guess what? It’s not illegal for me to buy or play them in my country so fuck off. Draneor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.68.130 (talk • contribs)

minori様、TLWikiに興味をお持ちいただきまして、まことにありがとうございます。恐縮ですが我々はただのファンの集合であり、公式的な進行は恐らく無理だと思っております。御社の審査などについての気持ちは分かりますが、御社が行っている荒らし行為のようなrevert競争などは、決して認めるようにはいけません。ページのコンテンツを改良しようとしない勝手な編集などはただちにお辞め下さい。我々は、誰も公式的に公開してくれない日本のゲームを世界に広めたいだけです。ご了承下さい。 62.113.171.64 22:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

[minori, thank you for having an interest in TLWiki. Sorry, but we are simply a collection of fans and progressing into some official localization outfit would be probably impossible. I understand your feelings about rating reviews, but I cannot condone your actions when you started a revert war, acting like you're raiding some website. Now please stop making arbitrary edits to a page's contents if you aren't trying to improve the page. We only wish to spread Japan's video games to the world when no one wants to officially distribute it. Please understand.]

This is the dumbest thing I ever seen, can someone block this idiot as I refuse to believe ANY company is THAT stupid.81.84.12.107 02:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

>Draneor 様
私たちのソフトウェアのパッケージ裏面には「日本国内専用」と記述させて頂いております。これは少なくとも日本国内で当社のソフトウェアを使用したことによって起きた事象は当社の責任が発生する可能性がありうるという意味です。合法か違法か? という点については「日本国内では合法、他は厳密な調査していないので不明」としか言いようがありません。Draneor様が合法と言い切られたということは、Draneor様はきっと日本国内居住ということなのでしょう(当社のソフトウェアは使用する地域・環境、使用する者の年齢による制限は行っておりますが、その他、使用者の国籍等の制限は一切ありません)。また、日本国内で使用することを前提に翻訳等を行う行為ついても、著作権法で認められた個人という範疇の方がその範疇で利用する場合は、著作権法に照らし合わせても、正当な使用法ですので、私たちは何も申し上げません(使用許諾契約書に記述している通りです)。ただし、不特定第三者に公開することは著作権法においても違法な行為ですので、ルールに則って対処しなければなりません。

>62.113.171.64 様
公式のご発言かどうかわかりかねますが、私たちは私たちの持ちうる権利(著作権)を侵害する行為に対して正当な権利行使をしたに過ぎません。当社は編集前に別途メールにてクレームをお出ししておりますし、一番最初の編集時に当該のページに編集の理由と連絡先を明示しました。これは著作権法を遵守するための防衛行動です。 その上で、当社の行為を否定するのであれば、法を遵守するために、24時間監視の上、即時対応すべきではないですか?(VDZ様が対応をされたことは理解しています) また、著作権を守る意思のある方のみが編集できるようなシステムにするなど、方法はいくらでもあると思いますが、この点いかがお考えでしょうか?
ご存知かわかりかねますが当社ソフトウェアには「使用許諾契約書」というのもが同封されており、契約書中で「当社の許諾無き翻訳等の禁止」を明示しております。これは著作権法をご理解していない方のために、記述しているものです。そして、すべての「正規ユーザー」の皆様は、ご同意頂いた上で、使用されていらっしゃいます。つまり、こちらで活動されている方は、残念ながら利用許諾にも違反しており、これも大多数のユーザーを保護する観点から認めることはできません。
また、ファンだから著作権を無視してもいいという論調にも同意しかねます。ひょっとすると、翻訳を行いパッチを無償で公開することを許可するメーカーもあるかもしれません(当社は前述の通りお断りしますが)。そのような問い合わせを行った上で、活動を行う事だってできるはずです(少なくとも当社には過去に遡って、そのような問い合わせを頂いておりません)。例えば、違法な方法によって不特定多数に頒布せずとも、今後何らかの方法で当社ソフトウェアに同梱し、日本国内で販売もしくは頒布する方法があるかもしれません。コストが発生するのであれば、見合った範囲でminoriが利益を分配する可能性もゼロでは無いと思います。こういった方法は、まず希望する側がコンタクトを取るところから始めるべきではないでしょうか? そういった建設的行為を行わずして、どうしたら公式になる可能性があるのか? という点を模索しないまま、所詮ファンだから公式と相容れることは不可能であると一方的に決め付ける姿勢は理解しかねます。
社会にはルールがあります。そのルールは守るか、変えるかどちらかしかできません。現状のルールでは全てのコンテンツは一定の期間、著作権者に権利が帰属します。期間中においてもしそれを二次利用したいのであれば、それが善意的であれ悪意的であれ、著作権者の許諾を得ることが世界のルールです。それを遵守して、はじめて「ファン」を名乗ることができるのではないでしょうか? 何度も書きますが、ファンの名を騙れば違法行為も辞さずというスタンスは認めることはできません。日本のゲームを世界に広げたいという意思はわかりますが、それはあくまでルールに基づいて行われるべきであり、無法に行うべき事ではありません。–218.219.158.186 10:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

[To Mr. Draneor
"Exclusively for use within Japan" is written on the back of the packaging for our software. It implies that at least that if there's a problem when you use the software within Japan, there's a possiblity that we (minori) have to take some responsibility for it. Is it legal [to play our games]? Well, we can only say that “it is legal inside Japan; we haven’t investigated the situation outside of Japan and therefore we don’t know.” Mr. Draneor, you were pretty confident in saying that it was legal, perhaps that means that you are residing inside Japan. (Our software comes with restrictions with respect to usage location, usage environment and user age, but we do not have any restrictions on nationality.) Also, assuming you are using this software in Japan, if you go about translating it, as long as you operate under the scope of “personal use” accepted by copyright law, we have no objections since it is considered proper usage if you cross-check with copyright law. (The user license agreement has this written on it.) However, distribution to random third parties is illegal even under copyright law, and so we have to take appropriate measures.

To Mr. 62.113.171.64
Don’t know whether this was an official statement, but we believe that we have properly exercised our rights in response to one of our rights (copyrights) being infringed upon. Before we proceeded with the edit, we send out specific email(s) regarding our complaint. When we committed the first edit, we clearly posted the reason for our edit and contract information. This is a defensive measure following the rules of copyright law. On top of that, if there were objections, shouldn’t there have been an immediate response in keeping with etiquette while our actions were being observed? (We understand that Mr. VDZ has responded) Also, isn’t it true that there are many ways to limit the editing system so that only people who respect copyright would be able to edit?
I don’t know if you know this, but our software come bundled with user license agreements, and within the license agreement is a clause clearing saying that “we prohibit translation without our permission.” This was written in the agreement for those who do not understand copyright law. Furthermore, all of the “legal/proper users” of the software use this software having accepted the agreement. In other words, those working here and unfortunately in violation of the license agreement, and we cannot condone this from the point of view of protecting the majority of our users.
Also, we do not agree with the idea that it is okay to ignore copyright if you are fans. Let’s suppose there is a game maker who would agree to allow free distribution of a fan translation patch. (Our company is opposed to this, by the way.) It should be possible to contact this company and with dialogue, be permitted to translate and distribute. (At least, we have never received such correspondence in the past.) For example, without illegal distribution to an indefinite number of people, perhaps there’s some way in the future for the translation to be bundled with the software and be released in Japan. If there are costs involved, I don’t think it’s impossible for minori to share some of the benefits at an appropriate level. In order for this to happen, it must start with the party that wishes to do this to establish contact, don’t you think? What other methods are there for an official release without such constructive actions? We don’t understand people not investigating the previous scenario, adhering to the one-sided line of thought that “since we are fans, we are incompatible with the official game makers.”
Society has rules. You can only follow these rules, or change them. As the rules currently stand, all [creative] content have rights assigned to the copyright holder for a limited time. If someone wishes to use the content in some derivative work within that period of time, regardless of whether it is for good use or for malicious use, it’s a universal rule that one should obtain the permission of the copyright holder. Perhaps it is by following these rules that we first become “fans”. As we have said before, we do not condone the stance of calling yourselves fans while continuing with these illicit activities. We understand wanting to spread Japan’s games to the world, but one should do this at least by the rules and should not go about doing this in an unreasonable manner.]

>パッケージ裏面には「日本国内専用」と記述させて頂いております FREE MARKET DIDN’T YOU LEARN THIS IN ECONOMICS CLASSES AT SCHOOL? OH WOW HOW DUMB CAN A MAN BE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.49.204 (talk • contribs)

["Exclusively for use in Japan" is written on the back of the package.]

I really don’t have an issue with you shutting down an unauthorized translation project, but you have no legal right to restrict the import of your products to another country. Japanese law, whatever it says, does not apply to me because I do not live in Japan. If you have an issue with companies that export it, take it up with them (although “first sale” and “exhaustion principle” might disagree). But as for why you’d prefer all “foreigners” to pirate your products over purchasing them I’d never know. Because that’s exactly what will happen if you shut down all legal avenues of acquiring them.Draneor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.68.130 (talk • contribs)

いっやー、まさか返事が来るとは思ってなかったなー(^ω^ )ゞ

インターネッツの事情について一つだけは理解して欲しい。それは、インターネッツは国際的な法を超えた存在で、古代的な倫理や権利などのルールは適用できないと言うことだ。クレームやら荒らしやらによって一つのプロジェクトが無くなっても、どこかの誰かが必ず継いでくれる。むしろこう言った行為によって、作品の知名度が高まってしまって、逆効果がある件も多い。このゲームの場合はもう手遅れかもしれないが、将来にも中々世界に見せたくないコンテンツがあったら、黙って何もしないほうがマシだと思います。ネット住民の意志は決して砕けないからだ。何度でも蘇るのだからさ!

とにかくminoriの皆さん、あんたたちは最高や!これからも思いっきりのHENTAIなゲームに期待していますw(もちろん海外居住だが、どうかご理解くださいまっしw) 62.113.171.64 12:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

[Wow, didn't realize that I'd get a reply ^^

Please at least understand one thing about the Internet. That is, the Internet is an entity that surpasses international law; in other words, you cannot apply archaic rules and rights to the Internet. Even if you stop one project through a complaint or raiding, someone somewhere will definitely continue. Rather, these types of actions end up giving said work more exposure and usually end up having the reverse intended effect. It's probably too late for this game, but in the future, if there's some content you don't want the world to see, it's best to shut up and do nothing. It's impossible to crush the will of the people on the net; they'll come back no matter what!

Anyway, to all the people at minori, you guys are awesome! I totally look forward to these "hentai" games lol (Of course I live overseas [outside of Japan], please understand lol)]

>62.113.171.64 well shit nigger you apparently aren’t allowed to play, or even buy their games. good luck with that shit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.49.204 (talk • contribs)

minori様は「公式のご発言かどうかわかりかねます」とおっしゃっていましたが、「62.113.171.64」のような無名の書き込みは決して公式ではないことをご理解して下さい。 公式な返事ならこちらに書いております。 僕の日本語が下手で余り敬語の使い方はわからないけど、日本語に翻訳してみます。
まず、minoriの社員がこれを読んでいるならば、minori様の要求書に答えようとしたTLWikiのユーザーの一部の大人気ない行動のことを謝っておきたいと思います。 けれど、事前の予告もなくページを消すのは要求を伝える正しい方法ではないこともお手伝いしたいと思います。 私にとっては会社の要求書等は単純に電子メールで送ってもらえれば幸いです。 今からメインページにてその希望を表明します。 私以外の者の行動がこのサイトの管理人としての公式な行動と勘違いされることを避けるため、ほとんどの管理人権を持ったユーザーから私は只今その権を奪いました。 言いたいことはそれだけです。 他の会社はもっと思いやってくれるといいのですが。

和訳での口調はバラバラでしょうけど、意味を分かって頂ければ何よりです。 69.163.180.32 12:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

[minori, if you are wondering about whether it's an official statement or not, please understand that an anonymous posting from 62.113.171.64 is definitely not an official statement. If you want the official response, I'll write it below. My Japanese is not very good and I'm not very good at using keigo [polite speech], but I translated it for you into Japanese:

[below is the original text from which the translation was made]

First, if anyone from minori is reading this, I would like to apologize for the childish behavior of some of the other users in response to their request. However, I would also like to state that blanking a page without prior notice is not the proper way to express your desire for a takedown.

I would quite prefer it if companies would simply notify me personally via email. Perhaps I’ll add a disclaimer to the main page stating as such.

I have removed administration abilities from the majority of users since I do not wish for anyone except myself to be construed as acting in the capacity of the official face of TLWiki.

That’s all I wanted to say. Hopefully most companies will be more understanding…

The tone due to the translation is probably all over the place, but I hope you understand the basic meaning.]

あ、私はただの通りすがりだといい忘れた。すいませんw 62.113.171.64 12:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
[Oh yeah, I'm just a passing Anon. Sorry lol]

UPDATE: We’ve been informed that minori has supposedly sent NNL a DMCA request and intend to pursue legal action in Canada if the DMCA is ignored. Meanwhile, NNL has put up a poll on their website asking whether ef should be released. Meanwhile, having also received correspondence from minori, one of the teams working on eden has decided to stop working on the project.

UPDATE 2: We got permission from our source to post the email:

私たちは、NNLに対して警告文(DMCA)を送付しています。
彼らがDMCAを無視し、著作権法を守らない場合、彼らの母国であるカナダにおいて裁判を起こす準備をしています。
私たちは、それぞれの国の文化を大事にしたいと考えています。
そこには必ずルールというものが必要です。
私たちのソフトウェアを日本国外でもプレイされたいという意見はありがたいですが、
そのためには、その国のルールの中で流通しなければなりません。
もし、私たちのソフトを日本国外で販売や頒布したいと考えるならば、
販売や頒布をしたい人が、私たちの会社に販売ライセンスを請求する交渉をすればいいのです。
2009年6月から今日まで、NNLのメンバーをはじめ、誰からもそのような問い合わせはありませんでした。
私たちはいつでも扉を開けて待っているのです。
Sincerely yours.
minori Inc.

Translation:

We will send NNL a warning letter (DMCA). If they ignore the DMCA and continue to violate copyright law, we will be prepared to start legal proceedings against them in their native country of Canada.
We would like each country’s culture to be treated with the utmost care. For that to happen, “rules” are necessary.
We appreciate the wish to play our software in a country other than Japan, but that must work within the rules of that country. If someone wishes to sell and distribute our software outside of Japan, then said person should negotiate with us to obtain a license.
From June of 2009 until today, no member of NNL or anyone else for that matter has approached us with anything of the sort. Our doors are always open [to such communications].

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